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Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 12:25 PM CST

Quote by: VicDiesel

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/globalhealth/july-dec09/insurance_1006.html

Guess which country get the best result for the least cost, and which one the least result for the highest cost?

Victor.

Interesting comparisons on that page as well as several other similar pages I browsed on other sites, all pointing to the inefficiency of the US health care system.

All of these comparisons I've reviewed today raise questions for me. Note that the countries in the comparisons that have high GDP and per capita income, with less per capita spending on health care compared to the US, also have a much smaller population than the US. I can't find numbers for it, but I would deduce that the corresponding size of government is somewhat proportional. The US is also split governmentally in state level capacities that are influential in regulations over the medical and insurance businesses.

I wonder what the effect of our large illegal immigrant population is on these numbers in the comparisons?

I will point out that I haven't stated that we don't need health care reform. I will also point out that I haven't pointed at some political party as culprit. My whole point is that I don't have faith in our government to execute a solution through higher taxation and imposition of additional regulation over these businesses.

In the current health care bill, is there verbiage regarding "negotiating" with the private medical and insurance sectors for working terms, as is the case in some of the comparisons internationally?
Daugrin
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Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1123
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 01:08 PM CST

So I guess you have found me to be a racist, and a poor musician as well?
What is the fastest growing demographic in the nursing career field in the US-imports? People enter nursing school all over the world end up recruited into the US. Brain drain. Happens to Dr.s as well, my point being there will be a mass departure from the ranks in the US medical field. Where will the replacements come from? The demands on staff must increase. It is what it is. Not racist on my part... until you need it to be.
None of the problems areas I mentioned are worth investigating, no debate? Just ignore the message and destroy the messenger. More graphs and talking points, no specifics?
Besides anyone who can write/play music like I do, is a racist, and tells you things you don't want to hear as well, deserves to be marginalized. Okay, I am marginalized. I will stay in the dog house.

Daug
chikoppi
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Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1953
Location: N/A
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 01:25 PM CST

Quote by: Daugrin
So I guess you have found me to be a racist, and a poor musician as well?
What is the fastest growing demographic in the nursing career field in the US-imports? People enter nursing school all over the world end up recruited into the US. Brain drain. Happens to Dr.s as well, my point being there will be a mass departure from the ranks in the US medical field. Where will the replacements come from? The demands on staff must increase. It is what it is. Not racist on my part... until you need it to be.
None of the problems areas I mentioned are worth investigating, no debate? Just ignore the message and destroy the messenger. More graphs and talking points, no specifics?
Besides anyone who can write/play music like I do, is a racist, and tells you things you don't want to hear as well, deserves to be marginalized. Okay, I am marginalized. I will stay in the dog house.


What?

I pointed out that your claims were unsubstantiated - meaning that you offered no facts or references to support them. I then presented a series of facts (not "graphs and talking points") that I felt specifically countered your position. How is that not debate? I posted an objective, third-party summary of the House bill. How is that not offering specifics?

I didn't attack you personally. I challenged your argument. If I didn't respect you or your right to express an opinion I wouldn't have taken the time out of my day to make the effort.


“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
VicDiesel
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2940
Location: Austin, TX
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 02:02 PM CST

Quote by: Rocha Malhada

All of these comparisons I've reviewed today raise questions for me. Note that the countries in the comparisons that have high GDP and per capita income, with less per capita spending on health care compared to the US, also have a much smaller population than the US.



Good question, but the US states have much more autonomy then European provinces. Which is why some states like Oregon or Mass can adopt laws that are "European-like".

In other words, I don't buy the scale objection.

Victor.

-- My CD.
Jim Bouchard
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 2019
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 02:56 PM CST

Quote by: MotherofMeursault

I'm sorry, Jim, but that is an unfair representation of what has happened.


What representation? I asked a question and didn't represent anything. How could a question be unfair? Is a rhetorical question inherently unfair? The implied answer might or might not be unfair but anyone's free to come to their own conclusion, so it's not me that's being unfair.
There are those that feel that this is an inappropriate venue to grind a political axe and there are those that only take part in the forum here when they want to grind a political axe. Different strokes, I guess, so I don't mind either way. But I'm sorry if I just don't like be talked down to and I can understand and support Fran's statement. That's all I was saying. I wasn't trying to sum up all that has happened in this thread. It's the perceived arrogance of the ax-grinders that drives wedges between us in our little community, and that upsets the roofers, and so they try to distract by providing a little diversion, or at least that's how I think of it with my tiny brain if you're asking me to sum it up. But I could be wrong, of course. Not being part of the roofer clan, I am just supposing. I never said I was smart.

Now, that chikoppi, at least he's supplying some facts that I can read and maybe get smart. One can hope, at least!
Cheers.
guitapick
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Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 2031
Location: New York City, USA
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 03:33 PM CST

1) Considering the unbelievable economic mess we're in today and the non-existent line between the culprits who created and/or permitted it to happen (aka: Republicans/Democrats/private industry...hand in hand)...considering this, I question whether the government's going to be able to make and sustain the changes that need to be made. They were part of the problem to begin with. A very big part of it. And not just the Republicans. I really like Obama...but it really rankled me when he said, of the government's role in this quagmire: "...there's plenty of blame to go around. Democrat and Republican...."

Oh really? That's nice to know. And......."aah...those kids"?

I want, so much, to trust in Uncle Sam to fix things up...but it's hard, given such a monumentally bad recent track record. We, the "average citizens" have been HOSED during the last few decades. I'm skeptical about everything touted by the government, now.

2) This is tied into the first point: from what I understand, the successful government run health care systems were all started that way and/or have been in place for a long time. The private route was not entrenched, beforehand. We're in a totally different situation, in the US. Regardless of the merits or not of our current system, it's been in place for a long time. It's become a part of our economy. Just "scrapping it" is not going to happen without causing some very, very big waves in more than just the swimming pools of the fatcats who made the big bucks off of that system to begin with. My friend's a physical therapist with a mortgage and 2 kids in college. Not rich by any means...and he's concerned about how his income's going to be affected.

All that said: I can't imagine how someone would think that the current system's not in need of correction. Business/government have created a system that's heavily weighted towards the wealthy. How do we trust them to change that? Who CAN change it?

I live between the notes

CDBaby "Above the Surface" iTunes Store

chikoppi
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Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1953
Location: N/A
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 03:58 PM CST

Quote by: guitapick
(...) All that said: I can't imagine how someone would think that the current system's not in need of correction. Business/government have created a system that's heavily weighted towards the wealthy. How do we trust them to change that? Who CAN change it?


Very good points all. Perhaps much of the acrimony surrounding this issue stems from the age old debate of which is worse, "the devil you know or the devil you don't."

For my part, I think we have to choose "the devil we don't know" and gamble on reform. The status quo is decimating American families and American businesses and is growing worse at a rate of 10% per year.

Politics is the "art of the possible." The final reform bill isn't going to be perfect or even pretty. If we're lucky it will slow the rate of health care growth to match the rate of inflation. If we're really lucky it will put us on a slow curve toward a more fair, effective, and affordable (as percentage of GDP) system.

For what its worth, I share your apprehension.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
ziti
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 1588
Location: Littleton, MA USA
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 04:13 PM CST

chickoppi

I think daug was talking to me.

I never said you were a bad musician. I said the way you represent your music and your political ideas makes me feel like i am being talked down to. I don't like being talked down to.

That's all.

chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1953
Location: N/A
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 06:14 PM CST

Quote by: ziti
chickoppi

I think daug was talking to me.


If that's the case then I apologize, Daug, for jumping the gun.


“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
 
MotherofMeursault
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 07:03 PM CST

Quote by: chikoppi
Quote by: guitapick
(...) All that said: I can't imagine how someone would think that the current system's not in need of correction. Business/government have created a system that's heavily weighted towards the wealthy. How do we trust them to change that? Who CAN change it?


Very good points all. Perhaps much of the acrimony surrounding this issue stems from the age old debate of which is worse, "the devil you know or the devil you don't."

For my part, I think we have to choose "the devil we don't know" and gamble on reform. The status quo is decimating American families and American businesses and is growing worse at a rate of 10% per year.

Politics is the "art of the possible." The final reform bill isn't going to be perfect or even pretty. If we're lucky it will slow the rate of health care growth to match the rate of inflation. If we're really lucky it will put us on a slow curve toward a more fair, effective, and affordable (as percentage of GDP) system.

For what its worth, I share your apprehension.



I share it, too.
I am almost more concerned, though, about all the thoughtful rationalism applied to a nonexistent choice:

The presentation of the current healthcare system as a 'private-profit' system is a fiction. The government first insinuated itself in the healthcare industry during World War 2, and it's influence has been growing ever since. The monumental costs associated with insurance and sickness in the US are the direct result of government interference in the form of endless modification, regulation, congressional payoffs and all the associated leeches that come with government intervention: lawyers, accountants, bureaucrats, etc etc...
Furthermore, hoping that the rate of healthcare costs will keep pace with inflation is a mind-boggling concept. Inflation is the enlargement of the money supply. The US dollar is counterfeit currency because it isn't backed by anything more than the promise of the government to be a responsible steward of its relative 'value'. The Federal Reserve prints the phony money at an unpublished rate which is significantly higher than the rate it admits to. The whole concept is corrupt!
Bob's doubt that the government is on his side is the most hopeful comment I've seen on this thread. What I think Bob and egobandit (and any others who are silently watching this exchange) are onto is that our government is designed to work FOR US, not the other way around. Our Constitution exists to prevent the government from turning the tables (as they're doing) and telling us "how things are gonna be".

And not for nothing, but the 'other devil you don't know' in this case is insurance-free healthcare: no government, no insurance, no co-pays, just payment for services on the spot. I am using it for all my "elective procedures" and "pre-existing conditions" and I recommend it highly.