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MotherofMeursault
Forum Full Member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Brace for impact
Wednesday, November 11 2009 @ 08:11 PM CST

Quote by: VicDiesel


I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. What suppression of liberty?

"Confiscation of wealth" is just plain stupid. They have taxes, and the rates are higher than in the US. That's the price of universal healthcare and such, but it's no essential difference with the US.

Victor.



My goodness, Mr. Collab_Box is certainly running scared, isn't he?

Let me be clear, I am not here to 'kick anyone's can' (Down, Daug, down!....Good boy......). I am here to provide a strong Constitutionalist response to the passive acceptance of an ever greater government role in our lives.

I can tell you that I am not at all heartened to hear that the amount government can seize from us against our will is merely a matter of another month's labor (give or take): each of us already works HALF THE YEAR to support the US behemoth. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in seeing that as a distinct suppression of liberty: I suspect that the passive citizens of the Netherlands don't all donate their labor to a bloated, schoolmarmish state as willingly as you would have us believe.

MoM
particledots_collab_box
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 1497
Location: , United States
 
Re:Brace for impact
Wednesday, November 11 2009 @ 08:14 PM CST

Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1123
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:Brace for impact
Wednesday, November 11 2009 @ 10:53 PM CST

Mom are you gonna take the pain pill? I want to know, and up front.
I don't want that for you Mom, I want your last years to be the best! Think of the tunes you can write!

I want Mom to get health care, like cardiac rehab, or maybe a bypass...
Not a pain pill and a knowing smile, because she is only 40% viable and doesn't "qualify" for further government healthcare expenditures, or the wait of two years too long...
When it's your Mom what will you want? When it's you, what will you want?
An actuary and Obama apparatchik reading the available options for Mom? Someone placed by government to counsel you to sign a waiver, someone to offer you an option to not to waste valuable healthcare resources?

Note: Bill asked about the roofers. Discussion at MJ is often drown out on purpose. The individuals who perpetrate this defeat of the expression of ideas, have in the past
done so with a rain of roofing tiles. Hense; "the roofers". They beat their hammers loudly until no exchange of ideas is possible. Besides "roofing" there are several ploys to achieve the same goal. This type of behavior is not unique to MJ, actually is very common on the net. Why? Small group dynamics is the short answer. The long answer?
When one can't argue on merit it is most expedient not to have discussion. Lots of
ways to stop discussion with people challenged to focus on anything longer than 20 seconds at a time in the first place...

Daug
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1953
Location: N/A
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 12:43 AM CST

Quote by: Daugrin
I want Mom to get health care, like cardiac rehab, or maybe a bypass...
Not a pain pill and a knowing smile, because she is only 40% viable and doesn't "qualify" for further government healthcare expenditures, or the wait of two years too long...
When it's your Mom what will you want? When it's you, what will you want?
An actuary and Obama apparatchik reading the available options for Mom? Someone placed by government to counsel you to sign a waiver, someone to offer you an option to not to waste valuable healthcare resources?


Hello, Glen Beck.

Absolutely nothing insinuated above is included in the proposed health care legislation. I'm all for a debate on constitutional compliance or the merits of policy, but let's please leave aside the baseless rhetoric that does nothing other than obscure and obstruct what is a very important national conversation. The subject is already complex enough without the added layers of hyperbole and mis-information.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1123
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 09:40 AM CST

Sorry, Chikop. Viability vs expenditure is a real concern. Go ahead and deny, but
let's get to some more, not hyperbole- real life vs talking points.

Peripheral vascular disease? Should we stent grandma's right and left femorals (open the big arteries in the legs) or just give her the pain pill? She's 83. You doubt it will come to this? This decision gets made already everyday! You want a apparatchik in that loop?

Grandma won't survive a bypass (if she can get approval). We can take her to the cath lab and stent (open) vessels on the right side of her heart. If she survives, we can bring her back in a month and stent open the clogged vessels on the left side. So she will go from being 30% viable, able to lie comfortably in bed, to 70% viable, able to complete most activities of daily life without assistance. She might then survive the bypass. Grandma says, "I want the life with dignity." Who will deny her five more years of dignity?, the actuaries will reach this level of decision making as the inevitable cost spiral/rationing begins.

We will always correct strabismus (wandering eye) in children and young adults. How about when it is in conjunction with a stroke in an 79 year old? What will stroke rehab look like in a world run by accountants? You doubt accountants will run rehab? They already do folks, physical therapy is expensive... wait until govt runs rehab!

Cancer is expensive. Lymphoma is a variety that can be cured after treatment of a couple of years and tons of money. At what age, circumstances, is lymphoma treatment no longer an option for patients in the govt healthcare system? This won't happen? People leaving Canada for cancer treatment in the US everyday...

I can go on with real examples, rheumatoid arthritis, gastric issues... Debate is unnecessary for those 35% of Americans who desire this govt takeover. Why?

But you don't believe these decisions will be made by a apparatchik? You don't believe that anything will change in the delivery of health care except it will be in the reach of everyone and be better and people will be healthier? And, excuse me, you believe these things based on the performance of the state since yesterday, your birthday... there is no rational basis for believing the talking points.

How about a real aside: Dr.s who are able, and many are, will retire before they work for the govt. Do you understand what that means? The most experienced practitioners will leave. The people in the pipe line will do cost analysis, wouldn't you?, and determine to do other things. What kind of health care will that eventuality make? Angry 'cos your Dr. doesn't speak English? Upset because the nurse is too "oriental", wonder why medical systems already import much of their talent? Why? You will see so much more in the future... just wake up in a new world everyday- just press reset, go on a listening tour, get some hope and change... you deserve it.

Daug

ziti
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 1588
Location: Littleton, MA USA
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 09:52 AM CST

Daug,
wow
I cannot muster a bow.
Just wow. "the nurse is too oriental..."
In your writing, and in your music, the consistent feeling that you are talking down to this very intelligent community really puts me off.

arhoo indeed
MotherofMeursault
Forum Full Member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 10:39 AM CST

Quote by: ziti
Daug,
wow
I cannot muster a bow.
Just wow. "the nurse is too oriental..."
In your writing, and in your music, the consistent feeling that you are talking down to this very intelligent community really puts me off.

arhoo indeed



Fran, you are a very clever boy, indeed, to make the connection between Daugrin's writing style and his music! I suspect that the static page (like the sonic limitations of mp3 compression) is not his natural metier. But I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that he's incredible live! This poetic, mystical friend of ours is a very rare, very compelling character; and I for one am glad he's here.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Jim Bouchard
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 2019
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 10:44 AM CST

Quote by: ziti
Daug,
wow
I cannot muster a bow.
Just wow. "the nurse is too oriental..."
In your writing, and in your music, the consistent feeling that you are talking down to this very intelligent community really puts me off.

arhoo indeed


Once again you hit it on the head, Fran. I'm dumbfounded. Maybe I'm just dumb. And you wonder why the roofers come out?
MotherofMeursault
Forum Full Member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 11:35 AM CST

Quote by: Jim Bouchard
Quote by: ziti
Daug,
wow
I cannot muster a bow.
Just wow. "the nurse is too oriental..."
In your writing, and in your music, the consistent feeling that you are talking down to this very intelligent community really puts me off.

arhoo indeed


Once again you hit it on the head, Fran. I'm dumbfounded. Maybe I'm just dumb. And you wonder why the roofers come out?



I'm sorry, Jim, but that is an unfair representation of what has happened. This thread was a perfectly reasonable discussion until it was 'roofed' in a very cowardly manner by particledots_collab_box in an attempt to quash a conversation that HE didn't like. In addition to being a pointlessly belligerent act, it throws off the entire rhythm of the thread, and introduces a measure of shrillness into subsequent posts. The 'roofers' were not collectively responding to a bout of insanity in their midst; one lone wolf heckler took it upon himself to urinate on the seats. Please look back over the thread, and you will see what I mean.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that the discussion can get back on track.
 
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1953
Location: N/A
 
Re:Brace for impact
Thursday, November 12 2009 @ 12:08 PM CST

Quote by: Daugrin
Sorry, Chikop. Viability vs expenditure is a real concern. Go ahead and deny, but let's get to some more, not hyperbole- real life vs talking points.

Peripheral vascular disease? Should we stent grandma's right and left femorals (open the big arteries in the legs) or just give her the pain pill? She's 83. You doubt it will come to this? This decision gets made already everyday! You want a apparatchik in that loop?

Grandma won't survive a bypass (if she can get approval). We can take her to the cath lab and stent (open) vessels on the right side of her heart. If she survives, we can bring her back in a month and stent open the clogged vessels on the left side. So she will go from being 30% viable, able to lie comfortably in bed, to 70% viable, able to complete most activities of daily life without assistance. She might then survive the bypass. Grandma says, "I want the life with dignity." Who will deny her five more years of dignity?, the actuaries will reach this level of decision making as the inevitable cost spiral/rationing begins.


(Etc., etc. in a similar vein.)

Again, none of the scenarios you proffer have any rational basis. Not in the legislation currently proposed. Not in historical evidence.

Firstly, your "death panel" insinuations more closely resemble the current "private-for-profit" system than anything proposed in reform measures. Insurance companies make money by denying coverage either before (pre-existing condition) or after (denial of claim) the fact.

California's Real Death Panels: Insurers Deny 21% of Claims
California Nurses Asscociation
Sept. 2, 2009


PacifiCare's Denials 40%, Cigna’s 33% in First Half of 2009

More than one of every five requests for medical claims for insured patients, even when recommended by a patient's physician, are rejected by California's largest private insurers, amounting to very real death panels in practice daily in the nation's biggest state, according to data released Wednesday by the California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee. (Cont.)


Secondly, of existing reformed health care systems the proposed legislation most closely mirrors that of Japan. People in Japan live longer and healthier. There is no secret cabal of ghouls killing the elderly to save costs. There is no need. They've simply removed profit from the doctor-patient equation. (Thanks to VicDiesel for the link.)

Oct 6 (PBS) Comparing International Health Care Systems


Japan
Japan was the first nation in Asia to create a comprehensive social insurance program. All citizens are required to have health insurance, either through an employer-based health insurance program or through the national health care program. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance.

Insurers are all not-for-profit and do not compete; they all cover the same services and drugs for the same price. The Japanese health ministry tightly controls these fixed prices and negotiates rates every two years with the health care industry. Patients have access to all health institutions, so they often skip a stop at the general practitioner, according to the WHO.

Most doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector. Patients freely choose their providers. (Cont.)


To help us all debate fact and not conjecture, here is a brief overview of the House bill from Reuters:

Nov 7 (Reuters) - The U.S. House of Representatives may vote on a sweeping healthcare overhaul as early as Saturday. Here are the main provisions of the House bill.

INSURANCE MARKET CHANGES

* Creates an insurance market exchange where individuals and small businesses would purchase coverage. Sets minimum benefit packages that may be offered through the exchange.

* Creates a new government health insurance plan that would be sold through the exchange.

* Provides for the creation of nonprofit healthcare cooperatives that would sell coverage through the exchange.

* Bars insurers from excluding people for pre-existing conditions and from charging more based on medical history.

* Creates a temporary national high-risk pool program to provide medical coverage to the uninsured, including those with pre-existing conditions who have been denied coverage. The program would operate until the exchange becomes available.

* Permits young people to remain on their parents' health insurance policy up to the age of 27.

* Provides for consumer rebates if premiums far exceed the cost of covering their medical expenses.

* Sets up a state/federal process under which insurers would have to justify premium increases.

* Eliminates lifetime limits on coverage.

* Provides for states to enter compacts to allow for the sale of insurance across state lines.

COVERAGE MANDATES AND PENALTIES

* Individuals are required to obtain healthcare coverage. Those who do not would face a 2.5 percent tax penalty.

* Most employers are required to provide coverage to their workers and pay for at least 72.5 percent of the premium for individual full-time workers, 65 percent for family coverage.

* Small firms with up to $500,000 in annual payroll are exempt.

* Firms with annual payrolls between $500,000 and $750,000 that do not provide coverage would pay fees on a sliding scale of 2 percent, 4 percent and 6 percent of wages; firms with payrolls of $750,000 and above would pay 8 percent in fees.

* Tax credits available to help small firms afford coverage.

FINANCING

* Imposes a surtax of 5.4 percent on individuals earning more than $500,000 a year and couples making more than $1 million.

* Imposes a 2.5 percent excise tax on medical devices.

* Raises $6.1 billion over 10 years by repealing rules liberalizing the way multinational companies allocate interest expenses.

* Limits tax breaks for foreign multinational companies incorporated in tax havens that may be using offshore structures to evade U.S. taxes.

* Closes a loophole that lets paper companies claim a valuable tax credit for making biofuel that is already a byproduct of paper production. This provision raises $24 billion over 10 years.

* Would write into law Internal Revenue Service rules denying tax breaks on business transactions that lack an economic purpose and are undertaken only to create a tax write-off. Fines of 20 percent to 40 percent would be imposed for violating the rules.

MEDICARE AND MEDICAID

* Expands Medicaid eligibility so that anyone with an income up to 150 percent of the poverty level would qualify for the government healthcare program for the poor.

* Seeks to reduce hospital readmissions and to base payments on quality of care rather than on the number of services and treatments.

* Reduces payments to insurers providing Medicare services through the Medicare Advantage program to bring them more in line with the costs of the traditional Medicare program for the elderly.

* Gradually reduces the gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage. The so-called "doughnut hole" begins to close starting in 2010, with the coverage gap eliminated by 2019.

* Would allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices under its prescription drug program. (Reporting by Donna Smith; editing by Mohammad Zargham)


Cheers.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles