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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 755
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Friday, November 10 2017 @ 10:50 AM CST

Well said, Daugrin ...

And also, puh-leeuze resist the use of stereotype phrases such as “left-” or “right-wing” in connection with those whose opinions do not align with yours.   There is a lot of crowd-psychology at play in anything politics, and one of the standard practices is such labeling.   (I frankly see the labels, “Democrat®” and “Republican®,” eroding very rapidly also in their meaning and in their perceived value.)   The opinions held by real-world people are usually complex, not simple, as are the people themselves.

And, at least right now, I perceive that people are in-general far more engaged than I am frankly used to seeing ... which is a very good thing, much too long in coming.   I frankly view the non-conventional Presidency of Donald Trump as being a significant part of this, whether you agree with him or you revile him.   For the first time in a very long time, people are engaged.
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1986
Location: N/A
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Friday, November 10 2017 @ 03:17 PM CST

That's great, fellas. But we could get rid of political parties, the "elites," and all media tomorrow and we'd still be left with the question of "what now?"

Making sound decisions requires a few things. First, an accurate and shared assessment of the current condition. Second, agreement about the desired outcome. Third, an evidence-based understanding of the actions that are most likely to produce the desired outcome. Fourth, the agreement and ability to act.

Neither sloganeering nor apathy is a solution. That simply empowers the self-interested few who have the most access to power. We need to get to get to a place where objective facts matter and the entire electorate holds office holders, regardless of party, accountable for responsible, informed, and justifiable actions and outcomes, not rhetoric.

It's fine to proclaim "seize the future" and it's good that people are willing to "be engaged," but there needs to be an evidence-based discussion of agreed upon facts or it all amounts to solipsistic nihilism.


“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 755
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Sunday, November 12 2017 @ 07:32 PM CST

I guess that I am non-cynical enough to think that be beginning to see this happening.

Also, it is quite clear that the media is intensely uncomfortable with a form of political discourse that it does not, itself, very-tightly control.   We live in more-interesting times, for the first time in a very long time.

The founders of this country were radicals, themselves.   I don’t think that they ever wanted the politics of this country to become ... as it did become (IMHO) ... fossilized.
Ed Hannifin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3486
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, November 16 2017 @ 07:59 AM CST


"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn
Ed Hannifin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3486
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, November 16 2017 @ 08:10 AM CST


"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn
Calchas
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 1286
Location: Salem, Oregon USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, November 16 2017 @ 10:12 AM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
If we imposed a blanket system of Term Limits – upon the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court and all inferior courts, and even upon administrative positions in agencies and bureaus – we would have a much-changed dynamic of power in Washington, DC.   At least until then, power and influence will continue to be bought and sold throughout the District.



Hah!

"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason..." (Mark Twain)
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 755
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, November 16 2017 @ 04:08 PM CST

Quote by: Ed Hannifin
As does this:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/15/how-trump-walked-into-putins-web-luke


Quite frankly, Ed, I think that “a certain group of Political Sore-Losers,” who never allowed themselves to consider that “modern-day political reality™” could be anything less than “what they thought it ought to be” ... are now quite-determined to blame their political misfortunes upon ... well ... The Russians™ (of course), Again.

Somehow, I have never yet heard anyone saying that “The Chinese,” or “The North Koreans,” or “The Lithuanians,” somehow ... miraculously(!) ... “meddled™” ... in the final settlement of any “American Political Conclusion That Did Not Go According To Plan.™”

...

“Maybe, just maybe(!), the American Political Process™ actually proceeded in exactly the way that it was supposed to do, one year ago almost-today.”   Maybe it actually wasn’t “a terrible mistake.”

Maybe “Those Pesky Russians™” had absolutely nothing(!) to do with the eventual outcome!

Maybe(!) the American Voter, having for the first time being presented with a genuinely-different(!!) political choice to choose from ... “seized the day.”   Precisely as the Founders of this country always intended for him to be able to do.

. . .

Maybe it actually ... wasn’t ... “a terrible mistake.™”

Maybe it was a perfectly legitimate(!), albeit unconventional and (so far ...) unprecedented, “election result!”

What if ... the American People ... actually did know what they were doing ... and actually did do what they did without any sort of “outside influence” ... and actually did very-purposely intend to “stick it to the man™,” when they were for the very first time actually given the chance?!?!

“What would “The Actual Founders of Our Country,’ treasonous radicals™ that they very-surely were, be saying about the state of affairs right now?”   After all, in their day, they rebelled against England!
Ed Hannifin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3486
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Tuesday, December 12 2017 @ 02:19 PM CST

If only there were a well-respected, Pulitzer prize winning outfit that checks things like this, and that cites their well-vetted sources, so we wouldn't have to argue based on backed-by-nothing opinion.

Oh wait.

There is.

I'm particular pleased that they have correctly used the word 'lie', a word that denotes intentionally stating things that are untrue.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/12/2017-lie-year-russian-election-interference-made-s/

"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 755
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 04:18 PM CST

I saw that feed too, Ed.   And I think that this quote rather sums it up:
Meanwhile, technology companies spent 2017 investigating how much activity from Russian interests unfolded on Facebook and Twitter. Facebook estimated that 126 million people were served Russia-influenced content during the two-year period before the election.

"The Russians tried to use our tools to sow mistrust," said Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg in November. "We build these tools to help people connect and bring us closer together. They used them to try to undermine our values. What they did is wrong, and we're not going to stand for it."

“But wait!   Is that “meddling,” or simply “advertising?”   Russia has a strong news-reporting company, state-owned, called rt.com, just like Great Britain has the BBC.   Exactly how is it “wrong” to “sow mistrust,” when it could well be argued that any news-media source anywhere might well be doing the same thing.   They used FaceBook too.   (But I have never in my life logged on to FaceBook, and I never will.)   Do you seriously think that media has this kind of power, even when (ooh, ooh!) the Russian Government (ooh! duck and cover!) sponsored it?   (Hint:   hilarious video if you haven’t seen it yet.)

And I’m afraid that the last two paragraphs clearly demonstrate what many people wan t to achieve by this:   “Watergate 2.0.”
"It’s possible that the president obstructed justice. It’s also possible the president behaved wildly inappropriately without obstructing justice," Wittes said. "And it’s important to find out exactly what happened."

"Once you say, we don’t mind foreign governments interfering with your elections, then you’re on your way to yielding up significant aspects of sovereignty," he added. "It’s an important line to defend."

“Interfering with your elections,” to me, means “causing the reported and accepted vote to be different from what votes were actually cast – which could not have been done, because most precincts were not “paperless.”   Putting out advertisements or simply stating a position is not a crime, even when a government-backed outlet is involved in doing it.   Thus, I interpret the assertion that “the story is fake” in terms of, “this is not a story or an allegation that actually matters.”   And it really does bother me to see millions of dollars of public money being spent wasted on what, in my view, really is nothing more than a sore-loser witch hunt.
 
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1986
Location: N/A
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 04:53 PM CST

Wow.

Out of curiosity, do you think you would feel the same if, say, China had covertly spread lies about Donald Trump, resulting in a win for Hillary Clinton? What if China does exactly that during the next election and Trump loses by a narrow margin? Honky-dory?

Do you think future political candidates should invite foreign powers to engage in disinformation campaigns against the American public on their behalf?

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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